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Old 19th Feb 2003, 05:02   #1
Buffy's #1 Crush
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Posts: 4,379
Spoilers: 7.16 & 7.17 (w/Spin-Off Speculation)

From Spoiler Slayer:

Episode 16

You know, most of the changes were simply dialog changes that don't affect the story in any real major way. Some things were notable, though.

There is a small "videoed" monologe by Kennedy, where originally she questions Buffy's leadership choices. In the revision, she dosen't do this. Instead, she remarks more about Willow, and how Willow and her are "doing okay" and that she doesn't want Willow to think she's afraid of her (after the magic wonkiness of eppy 15). "Not too much, anyway."

Another somewhat altered scene is the Xander/Anya bed scene. Originally, they are both very much in agreement after having sex that though it was nice, the spark is gone. In the revision, they still agree it's over, but it feels less certain...especially on Xander's side.

Originally, Wood goes to hit Spike when his back is turned when they are fighting with a plank that has nails driven through it... in the revision, the nailed plank splinters when Wood is fighting, and then when Spike has his back turned to him during the fight, Wood goes to stake him with the splintered board.

The revised endings slightly different, but not drasticly so. Originally, Buffy is holding a knife to Andrew's neck, and threatens to cut him, telling him "I'm not some--I don't know half as much as you think I do. I'm making it up." She goes onto tell him that he's probably going to die now. This is when Andrew crys and the seal stops glowing. After this is done, Andrew asks Buffy if she knew it was tears that was needed all along. She tells him that she already told him...that she usually doesn't know as much as he thinks.
In the revision, it's a little different. Buffy holds him leaning over the seal with the blade to the back of his neck, and says to him instead "I made it up. I'm making it all up. What kind of hero does that make me?" After the tears, Buffy tells Andrew that she's sorry and that she wasn't going to stab him.

Anyway, those are some of the more major changes, so nothing OVERLY dramatic!

Andrew gets EVERYONE on video at one point or another... often, they don't even know the tapes rolling! No one really seems to mind though except for Buffy.
And Andrew dramatizes almost everything like it were a soap opera or maybe a super-hero comic book.

Is Giles in Episode 16?

Hello, Lurker!
No, I'm afraid there's no Giles in episode 16. And we get no explaination for his absence until eppy 17. Apparently, Giles' trip was "regaurding Spike." He brings back something that might help Spike shake the First's trigger on him...a Prokaryote stone.

Does Andrew give a reason for this new hobby?

He's "entertaining and educating" us with a "document for the ages! A Slayer in action!" He also goes onto tell us that the story needs to be told. Everybody seems to think it's a pretty good idea...except for Buffy, who is simply annoyed by Andrew following her around.

Does anyone see the completed video?

No. The video is never compleated (at least not in this episode, but I get the feeling it won't be finished). In a way, the video becomes Andrew's confessional in the end.

In the hand holding scene in 17 how does it play off is spike shocked that she is holding his hand, do they say anything? How do the others react?

Right now, I caan't seem to recall any Buffy/Wood hand-holding in 17. someone refresh my memory, please!

Do you have the 18 script?

No! But boy-o-boy is it on my mind! Can't wait to read it, especially after reading 17!!! I don't know when I will have it as of yet, but I'm GUESSING that I might have it around the 25th or so. But who knows?

What is the deal with the supposed scene that deals with Andrew looking at some of Xander's windows, saying they looked so nice that it was almost as if they were never broken? Is that in there? Does it seem like a sign of time-wonkiness?

Andrew points his camera around the corner to film the living room. We see (via video) Willow and Kennedy kissing on the couch...but the camera goes right passed them...then off to one side, focused on the window near them. THIS is what Andrew wants to show us. We hear a voice over of Andrew complimenting Xander's "fine work," and how "extraordinary" he is..."you can't even tell it's new, it blends in so well."

Does anyone appear to still have a problem with Buffy's leadership after what happens with Chloe in 15?

Hmmm...I think thet originally were going to have some of that, but seemed to change their minds, mostly.

What's the deal with Sunnydale being in flames and the army of Ubervamps? Do they even acknowledge this?

Buffy mentions her "vision" to everyone in the kitchen during breakfast in one of her "motivating speeches." Apparently, most of the group aren't really riveted by her words... kinda bored, really...as we can see through Andrew's camera.

What can you tell us about spike in 16? Any interaction with buffy, anything?

Of course there's interaction with Buffy! No Spuffiness in my opinion though. Perhaps a twinge of jealousy on Spike's part, though. Nothing earth shattering.
My FAVORITE episode 16 Spike scene;

This is a videoed scene. We're in the Summer's house basement. We see Spike hanging out in his duster, having a smoke. Suddenly, he realizes that he's being taped. He flicks his butt at the camera and closes in, ticked. He gets in the camera's "face" telling Andrew to "piss bloody off" with his camera and to "sod off" before he sticks the "bleedin' thing up your ass, right?"
We then hear Andrew telling Spike that the light was kinda behind him. Spike, suddenly reasonable, moves a bit to one side. "This better here, then?"

Episode 17

I think I may have misunderstood you from your last Q&A so I hope you can clarify this.

When Giles is talking to Buffy about whether she'd be willing to sacrifice somebody for the greater good, who is that somebody, Giles or Dawn? There've been a couple interpretations of this.

Yes. I'm actually aware of the confusion over this one. And I actually understand why some people are confused.
Okay... deep breath... the answer is Dawn. I base this belief on this line spoken by Giles; "Faced with the same choice now... you'd let her die." Buffy answers yes to this. Please understand that I really think you'll need to see this episode before passing harsh judgment. I REALLY get the feel that the end scene of this eppy tosses this whole Buffy/Giles scene out the window, and Buffy stroking Dawn's hair and then slamming the door in Giles' face is somewhat symbolic of this.

I've heard Willow gets a phone call from Fred this ep about the whole Angelus thing, is it true? Does Willow leave this ep, and does she tell anyone what she's up to?

You heard right babybluez!
The phone rings early in Act 2, shortly after Spike's little fit in the basement. Willow it tending to a nasty gash on Dawn's forehead when Andrew goes to answer the phone. Anya is complaining a bit about how Spike has some kind of "get-out-of-jail-free" card with Buffy that doesn't seem to apply to the rest of them, and Willow and Xander give her comment a "look."
Andrew re-enters, telling Willow that she has a phone call from L.A., from somebody named "Fred." "Guy sounds kinda effeminate."

Later in Act 2, we see Willow standing on the basement stairs, talking to Buffy who is in the basement with Giles, Wood and Spike. Willow tells Buffy that she just got a phone call, and needs to go away for maybe a day or two. Buuffy asks if anythings wrong, but Willow tells her that it's nothing she needs to worry about, assurring her she'll give her "the full scoop later," and that hopefully, she'd bring back some good news. Buffy looks at Willow, looks at Spike..."Just hurry back." Willow heads off upstairs, and Buffy starts off towards Spike...

I've just read elsewhere that this is not a Giles friendly episode, and Buffy and Giles virtually end up against each other. Is this right?

Oooooh, Lurker... when I read the script, I was simply shocked by Giles. I felt kinda betrayed by him, as I'm sure Buffy likely did as well. There is a definite wedge in the Buffy/Giles relationship now...no doubt whatsoever.

Strange, really, since the episode starts off with Giles wanting to help Spike get rid of the control the First has over him via the "trigger."
It's in the middle of Act 2, after Wood learns allll about The First and it's "trigger" control over Spike that Wood pulls Giles off to the side. "I think something needs to be done" Wood tells Giles. At first Giles is unsure what, exactly, Wood is implying...but it slowly starts to sink in. Wood is VERY coniving and convincing. "I just need you to keep Buffy away for a few hours."

Giles takes Buffy "patroling" in the graveyard.
Wood takes Spike to his cross-ladden garage.
Spike is betrayed.
Buffy's betrayed.

Hey, hon! I know Spike brushes off Buffy's concern when she gets to Wood's house, but could you reveal how the script describes Buffy's emotions on seeing Spike is still alive?

Spike steps out into the night as he pulls on his long black coat, leaving Wood's place. "Spike!" Spike hesitates. Buffy runs up, anxious. She sees he's wounded and trys to touch his face and check him over as she asks if he's okay. He pushes her hands away.
He goes back to Wood's door and opens it to reveal a VERY battered Wood. Spike tells Buffy that he let Wood live because he killed Wood's mother. "But that's all he gets," says Spike, and he goes onto say that if Wood even looks at him funny again, "I'll kill him."
Buffy watches Spike go off into the night, then goes to Wood. She tells Wood that she understands why he did what he did, but...she tells him if he goes after Spike again, he'll kill him, "but more importantly, I'm going to let him."

How does Wood come off in the episode? Do you think Buffy is done with him? Is it ambigious at all about if he had a right to do what he did?

Oooo. Ancientpeas! I read your posts quite often!:-)

You should see one of my posts above, on the scene when Buffy approches Spike after the Spike/Wood fight. i think it answers your questions, for the most part. Giles, Spike and Buffy ALL know exactly why Wood does what he does, but all seem to feel differently about it, though Spike and Buffy are somewhat on the same page in their thinking.
I think that Wood comes off as sneaky, coniving, manipulative and vengeful. I personally think it's pretty safe to say that Wood/Buffy ship has wrecked.

This is how I read it, of course.

I think you guys should know...
The scene goes like this...

Buffy is fighting the vamp (his name is Richard) in the graveyard while Giles is talking to her. He asks her if she would let that vampire kill him if it would save the world. She says that they've talked about this before, when she wouldn't sacrifice Dawn to save the world (refering to "The Gift"). Giles says,"things are different now...aren't they? After what you've been through...knowing what you're up against," he questions if Buffy would let her die faced with the same choice NOW. Knowing what she knows now...
Buffy hesitates, and realizes that she would if she had to...to save the world. Then the vamp she's fighting kicks her in the head. She starts to wail on the vamp.
Giles goes onto say that it's good that she understands that ANY one of them is expendable. He goes onto tell her that Spike is a liability. She argues with him on that. She says that The First made him do those things...he's innocent. "So was Ben," says Giles. Buffy learns about what Giles did to Ben...then realizes that he's stalling her. She's in shock. Then she turns and runs.

At the very END of the episode, Buffy is home. She is sitting at the edge of Dawn's bed. Dawn is fast asleep. Buffy tenderly strokes her hair and caresses her cheek, then exits into the hallway. Giles calls to her. He says what was done was done for the good of all. She tells him Spikes still alive. Wood failed. Giles says that that doesn't change anything. "You need to learn..." "I think you've taught me everything I need to know." She closes her room door in his face.

Does this give you guys a new perspective??

I have a couple of questions about the flashbacks. I've always loved the flashback episodes (Selfless is one of my favorite eps ever) so I was hoping you could fill in some details. How much of the episode is in flasbacks? Do we see Dru or Darla at all?

Well, Cecily, this episode's got a few yummy flashbacks for you... mostly revolving around Spike and his mum.
There's so many of them, but I'll give you a rundown;

The opening teaser is of Nikki, Spike and little Wood back in 1977 Central Park.

In Act 1, we have Spike and his mum back in 1880, before William was turned. His sickly, frail mum (Anne) tells him how "magnificent" his poems are. And she sings to him,"Early One Morning."

In Act 2, we have another 1889 scene, that starts out with the newly turned William and DRUSILLA at the home of his mother. Dru can't believe that William wants to turn his mother and not just "eat" her. His mother comes out, concerned. She hasn't seen him for days. William tells her that he's a vampire, then holds her and sinks his teeth into her neck.

(the following I'm stitching together from a number of segments into one continual scene)

Beginning of Act 3, in a London townhouse in 1880,we have another scene with William and his newly turned mum. She is no longer sickly. He is happy to see her doing well. But she is wickedly cool to him, telling him cruely how terrible his poems were.
She says she wants to pry his fingers from her apron strings, that he is no more than a parasite.
William backs away, horrified, destroyed.
"That's not who I am anymore," he says.
"Darling...it's who you'll always be.
A limp, sentimental fool."
She grasps her old walking stick...tells him he always wanted his hands on her. She grows darkly eductive, suggesting that they "have a go". Horrified, William pleads with her, tells her he loves her, but not like this.
She continues to come on to him and he finally shoves her...hard. She's furious, and takes her cane and swings at him. They struggle, and the cane snaps in two.
"I'm sorry," William says.He plunges the broken cane into his mother's heart. And for a moment, she's the kind woman she was before she was turned...
then dust.

Is spike pissed at her?

You have to understand... Spike was just betrayed, and as far as I know he doesn't know WHO'S responsible for that yet (aside from Wood). I personally don't think that Spike's "pissed" at Buffy. Though he might at the very least be questioning her judgement of people...

Is buffy concerned for him in a friendly way or romantic when she see's him outside woods, what does she say?

Again, this is truly a point-of-veiw type o question. I'll say this, she definatly cares about him (no kidding, right?!), and I think her subtle little actions prove she loves him... the only question now is not how much but HOW she loves him... love doesn't neccessarily mean romance. But it could. Here's a description of that scene I posted earlier this week. What you think....?

Spike steps out into the night as he pulls on his long black coat, leaving Wood's place. "Spike!" Spike hesitates. Buffy runs up, anxious. She sees he's wounded and trys to touch his face and check him over as she asks if he's okay. He pushes her hands away.
He goes back to Wood's door and opens it to reveal a VERY battered Wood. Spike tells Buffy that he let Wood live because he killed Wood's mother. "But that's all he gets," says Spike, and he goes onto say that if Wood even looks at him funny again, "I'll kill him."
Buffy watches Spike go off into the night, then goes to Wood. She tells Wood that she understands why he did what he did, but...she tells him if he goes after Spike again, he'll kill him, "but more importantly, I'm going to let him."

The scene where Buffy takes Spike's hand that I recall is right as the Prokaryote stone comes to life and vanishes into Spike's eye. Spike's a little out of it while all this is happening, so I don't think he really TOO aware of Buffy's hand holding. Everyone else is too revolted by the thing sliding into Spike's eye to see the hand holding, I think.

With the number of reports coming out, I do believe that we will see Faith next season as the Vampire Slayer of record. In addition, there will be fewer Scoobies than we would expect making the move to the new show. The one question mark I had was Spike, and where he would fit in with the new show. You certainly would be limited in the relationship that could develop between these two. The Caleb casting information leads me to believe that the character is being lined up for the spin-off.

Currently, I see the new cast consisting of the following characters.


I know that I've mentioned that it seems Caleb is a threat more than an ally, but then again most of the male leads have followed the same path (or at least had a dark secret that they needed to deal with). With the exception of Kennedy, all of the characters will have had a brush with darkness in the past.

The show will be significantly different in terms of look and feel compared to 'Buffy'. It's my belief that it's going to take on a more action-orientated and darker tone. Think more 'Dark Angel', with maybe a bit of 'Alias' thrown into the mix. Part of the tone is going to be determined by the nature of the characters themselves. I also think that the show won't be as tied to a single location, perhaps even taking on a more international flavor.

Given that, it doesn't mean that some of the former Scoobies won't still be around or stop by for a visit. I also wouldn't rule out Wood taking on a role similar to Giles, or even one or more of the SIT's also moving to the new show (my money would be on Rona and Molly).
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Old 19th Feb 2003, 09:38   #2
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I only barely skimmed the top part- I'm trying to cut back a little- I know way too much about those eps already!

But the bottom part is what scares me. I've never hoped Tensai was wrong before, but I sure hope his speculation is wrong this time. I read that earlier tonight on his site and the idea of bringing any of the SIT's along sends shivers up my spine. And Andrew??? I mean yeah, he's funny but ME can't hate the fans that much can they? The only sigh of relief would be no Dawn.

And I thought Nick and James were the most enthusiastic out of the current cast to return? Maybe they'll go to Angel if we can lighten that cast a little and it gets renewed!
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