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View Poll Results: Which team had the best arguments regarding Xander's choice?
TeamPro 11 52.38%
TeamCon 10 47.62%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 2nd Mar 2002, 19:49   #1
Lynn
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Debate #2 result: Vote and post your opinion here! (open till 8am Wed 6th GMT)

Everyone can post anything regarding the debate they want here - their own opinions on S6, opinions on the debate, etc. The speakers can post here too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The proposition:

Xander did the right thing by lying to Buffy about Willow's spell in Becoming Part 2

The teams:

Pro: Dark Wader, adam, BigRock, Bob

Con: THP, Black Magic, Davros, DarkAngel


You can read the debate posts here.

It would be cool if people vote for the side they think actually made the best arguments, rather than for the side they agreed with before the debate started. Even better, cast your vote before reading any other opinions posted in this thread! But basically your vote is your own, so use it however you see fit! Since we had a poll of people's opinion on this thread on the subject before the debate, it'll be interesting to see who has been persuaded!

Voting closes 8am GMT on Wednesday 6th March 2002 - that's 6pm Sydney, 9am CET, 3am EST, midnight PST.
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Old 2nd Mar 2002, 20:28   #2
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I voted Teampro, I already agreed with the fact that Xander did the right thing and their arguments (to which I fully agree) have only made me think I'm more right in thinking it.
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Old 3rd Mar 2002, 07:20   #3
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To be honest, I never held an opinion one way or the other on this topic, but teampro convinced me-- goooooooo PRO!
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Old 3rd Mar 2002, 14:36   #4
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I was on the TeamCon side from the beginning. They did a great job exploring Xander's motivation. TeamPro was unable to convince me, especially with the "it's OK to lie to a friend when we know better than them" argument.
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Old 3rd Mar 2002, 22:08   #5
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Considering how both teams worked hard to present many different arguments and to explore the situation from every aspect, it's weird to me how some people seem to focus on only one aspect of one argument from one post out of the entire debate. Oh, well. Something to remember for next time, I guess.

Last edited by Casey : 4th Mar 2002 at 02:11.
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Old 3rd Mar 2002, 23:55   #6
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I was on TeamCons side of the argument and they done a great job of convincing me. where as lying to a friend for certain reasons can be argued, where thier lovelife and health is concerned (not to mention the fate of the world) a suposed friend should speak out rather than shut up
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Old 4th Mar 2002, 12:21   #7
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well, Bob if you agree about every argument of each team I wonder how can you make up your mind. and it's true for everything. We hear a lot of ideas and advices but we don't agree with all.
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Old 4th Mar 2002, 13:29   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Comet
well, Bob if you agree about every argument of each team I wonder how can you make up your mind. and it's true for everything. We hear a lot of ideas and advices but we don't agree with all.


Right, but that's what I found interesting--how I pretty much just kept hearing one argument mentioned, rather than several. I didn't say people should agree with everything! But neither team based their position on just one argument, so seems to me the decision shouldn't come down to just one argument. (Maybe it didn't come down to just one argument, and I've just gotten that impression from some folks because that one argument is all they've been mentioning.) But, of course, people can make up their minds however they want. It was just somethin' I noticed.
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Old 4th Mar 2002, 20:35   #9
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Bob: I don't want to speak for Comet but I think sometimes one particular point within the overall argument can have more resonance with someone. Therefore that is the point they may focus their comments on because it's that point that convinced them to agree with a particular side of the argument.

I personally found this to be the case in this debate.....certain points seemed more applicable or believable. While some seemed not to really apply to the debate statement at all in my opinion.

I pretty much know where I stand on the argument overall but I was also trying to look at the debate on a point by point basis to see whether it was TeamPro or TeamCon that raised the most believable points.
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 00:10   #10
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Ahem. Bob was using my account over the weekend to check something in my pm's for me. He apparently forgot to switch back to himself, cuz he wrote the below post, not I. Thought I concur with what's been said.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sleigh
Bob: I don't want to speak for Comet but I think sometimes one particular point within the overall argument can have more resonance with someone. Therefore that is the point they may focus their comments on because it's that point that convinced them to agree with a particular side of the argument.


Yeah, that makes sense. And I probably shouldn't have said anything. It just seemed to me that even if you don't buy one side of a team's argument, that doesn't automatically discount all the other arguments they've raised. And it kinda sounds like that was what some folks were doing. But maybe that one argument was all they felt like mentioning, which is valid. I just kept seeing the one analogy criticized, and I was always thinking, "So . . . what about all the stuff I said? Or the other stuff BigRock said?" And then I would end up curled in a fetal ball in my bathtub with the lights off. Whole big thing. So I just had to say something.

Last edited by BigRock : 5th Mar 2002 at 00:41.
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 00:32   #11
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BigRock, you were totally right with your idea and your analogy was very good. It's just that I realized that this idea was the main point of the debate. Because it's really what Xander did. Whatever the reasons (jealousy or other), he lied to Buffy because, at this right moment, he thinked that with the truth she wouldn't be abble to make the right choice.

So as I didn't agree with this argument, I suddenly understood why I've thought Xander was wrong for all these years.

It seems to me that this argument sums up the debate. Someone agreeing with you about this idea would propably think that Xander was right.

To answer Bob, I think that very often there is only one argument that convince one person. But to convince everyone, people need to expose a lot of arguments in order to find the right one for each person.
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Last edited by Comet : 5th Mar 2002 at 00:49.
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 10:11   #12
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Just a slight technical question: Where'd the debate thread go ?
It doesn't appear at the top of the board... has it become "unsticky" or is there a wider conspiracy... to stop the spread of the Con Teams message to the masses

... Incidentally I'm with Comet on this one... I reakon that when it comes down it it, the quality of arguments is more important than quantity
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 10:26   #13
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I unsticked it cause it was linked in this thread anyway.
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 10:40   #14
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Lynn Fair enough
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'Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to anger.' No wait, hold on. 'Fear leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side.' Hold on, no, umm, 'First you get the women, then you get the money, then you...' okay, can we forget that?
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 12:23   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Comet
To answer Bob, I think that very often there is only one argument that convince one person. But to convince everyone, people need to expose a lot of arguments in order to find the right one for each person.
I think Comet is right with this - the whole point of a debate is to go through all possible reasons that your side is right, in the hopes that people will be convinced by at least one of them. I don't think it really matters whether they agree with all of the arguments or not.
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 14:18   #16
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I think it would be interesting to see how many people voted against their opinion of the statement. I think it is really hard to be objective to rate the arguments, and NOT the statement.

And even tho i still think (sorry feel ) Xander did the wrong thing, I think TeamPro made the best argument.


And Tom, you *know* you resolved my last doubt about my vote when you put in that darn last remark, didn't you?!
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 15:33   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Black Magic
I think Comet is right with this - the whole point of a debate is to go through all possible reasons that your side is right, in the hopes that people will be convinced by at least one of them. I don't think it really matters whether they agree with all of the arguments or not.


That's pretty much what I've been saying, Black Magic. I'm over it, though. My apologies if I seemed rude. I've kinda decided joining in on a formal debate was a bad idea on my part. Not being able to respond to TeamCon's rebuttal post yet and point out the statements they falsely attributed to us has been frustrating to an anal-retentive control freak like me. I'm more of a (civilized) free-for-all kinda guy when it comes to board debates. Better for my blood pressure.

Last edited by Casey : 5th Mar 2002 at 16:03.
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Old 5th Mar 2002, 20:00   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Davros
... Incidentally I'm with Comet on this one... I reakon that when it comes down it it, the quality of arguments is more important than quantity


I never said, "We should win because we made a whole lot of arguments." Of course it's quality over quantity. What I said is that one paragraph hardly makes or breaks an entire debate, at least not if the argument is multi-faceted and the debate is being examined rationally. Not sure how that's being perceived as such a controversial statement or whatever. As for quality of arguments, I'll have more to say about that once voting is over and I'm allowed to jump back into the discussion. But considering that as of this writing the teams are tied, Davros, I'd say both sides acquitted themselves very well.
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Old 7th Mar 2002, 01:29   #19
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Cool

The poll is now closed. Close call, but congrats to TeamPro
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Old 7th Mar 2002, 08:33   #20
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Well Done Team Pro
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'Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to anger.' No wait, hold on. 'Fear leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side.' Hold on, no, umm, 'First you get the women, then you get the money, then you...' okay, can we forget that?
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Old 7th Mar 2002, 09:51   #21
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Congrats!



No reason to cheer tho, he *was* wrong

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Old 7th Mar 2002, 14:10   #22
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Well done everyone, excellent debate! And extra congrats to TeamPro of course....

Anyone who has issues they still want to vent, feel free.
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Old 7th Mar 2002, 19:19   #23
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I'm all vented out.
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Old 7th Mar 2002, 21:54   #24
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Wow, I can't believe we actually won. Given how many people seem to hate Xander for it, and some particularly negative reaction to one of our arguments, I was sure we were gonna lose. Glad we did win, considering I lost the last one.

I have some issues still, but since we won, it feels weird to go on about it now. I'm happy.
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Old 8th Mar 2002, 01:07   #25
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Cool

We was robbed I tell you, robbed!

I demand a recount, preferably in Florida...
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